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Basement Finishing and Renovations Has it been 2 years already? Time to work on finishing the basement into some extra living space.


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  #41  
Old 2019-02-20, 08:38 AM
TDIGUY TDIGUY is offline
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Originally Posted by good2know View Post
Great progress. You have some interesting things there.

Re electrical panel options: I would bounce the options off your local esa people first and do it the way they prefer. You have a big benefit that you can shut off the house from the garage.

In a good better best scenario, I would replace the house panel I trhink. That said, I cant think of any reason a second house panel direct to the garage main panel wouldnt be fully acceptable.

I'd like to see a pic or two of the inside of the house panel just to see how untidy that might be.

Structural stuff: Very surprising to see the steel beside the triple 2 x whatever. I wonder how they installed that if it came as a second stage. Depends on beam size, but the max span on a steel beam is 12 feet.

The little blocks are not holding anything. What exactly is holding up the steel" Are there beam pockets into the concrete? Are the floor joists from both sides sitting on the steel beam?

Are the joints staggered over where the post was?

When you redo the bulkhead, leave an inch or so space to the plenum. Two reasons - avoid heat on wood, and you dont want the metal ducts flexing and rubbing against the wood causing some noise every time the furnace runs.

If you pull all the walls, recommend you install the new walls on the subfloor so any moisture can travel unrestricted to the floor drain.

Electrical tip for the design: If you run all the basement lights separate from any plugs, you can eliminate the device count restriction. Rather its based on 80% of breaker capacity calculated by adding up the power consumption of whatever light you use.

Great job so far. Oh can you tell yet of the plumbing all meets code?

Oh and HVAC requirements: Now would be a good time to increase the return air flow capacity to the furnace from the basement and add some new vents for each of the rooms.
I didn't get a chance to take a picture inside the panel last night, I did have it open the other day and it is a lot cleaner than I expected. I am thinking the panel was done by the electrician originally and the PO was just splitting off existing circuits whenever he needed power which would explain all the tie-ins and junction boxes. I will talk to the ESA about the options and see what they say, I want to make sure it will pass inspection when it is done.

I am pretty sure the I-beam was a second stage as the base of the post is still in the concrete just cut off flush with the floor. I took a closer look at it last night and the I-Beam and beam are tight side by side, the joists do overhang the beam a bit so they are at least partially sitting on the I-beam from both sides.

I took a measurement as well and the overall span of the beam is about 20'
but it does not go foundation wall to foundation wall, on one end it is sitting on a triple 2x6 which is on an interior foundation wall, the beam is also supported the same and ends there. The other end I know is not supported properly, there is a jack post for the main beam which does continue to the foundation wall but the I-beam is only supported by a 2x4 interior wall with basically 3 2x4's but only 2 are tight together. This is less than 6" away from the jack post holding the beam so should at least be sitting on the footing.

I added a sketch and pictures for more info.

As for the plumbing everything looks good from what i can see. Everything done with the original move of the house looks good, it is all the extras and changes that are bad.

Thanks for the tip on the electrical and HVAC, I plan to have someone look at it and give it a once over before i start re-building the basement to make sure everything looks good.

Once I finish the cleanup from demolition I am going to start working on the final plan and electrical design and I will keep the lighting in mind. I was planning to keep it separate from the outlets either way, just didn't know I could waive the device count in favour of total draw amount.
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  #42  
Old 2019-02-20, 08:39 AM
TDIGUY TDIGUY is offline
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Suggestion: If you have a Lowes nearby, ask them for a contractor account. That will get you a 5% always and sometime as much as %15 discount on everything and reduced shipping charges.

The discount is applied at checkout and you get a monthly invoice. Payment is monthly.

I did this a fews years back and they were happy to do it. When there is a large scope of work, a 5 % discount to get the whole contract is worth it to them.
Good to know, Thanks.
I actually work right across the street from Lowes so that would make it even better.
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  #43  
Old 2019-02-20, 08:46 AM
TDIGUY TDIGUY is offline
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Originally Posted by BartBandy View Post
Structurally, that ain't right, but you probably know that.

You can't load a steel beam like that.

Is the steel beam engaging the joists above? Joists seem to come from both sides of the 3-2x12 built-up wood beam, so I assume the steel beam is, at best, engaging only one set of joists.

The way I would do it is first check that the steel beam is up to the job, and is properly supported itself. If all that checks out, then I would build up blocking between the wood beam and the web of the steel beam and laminate them together with through bolts to prevent twisting of either. You want them deflecting together and operating as a system, not individually. And not with stupid little block on top of the bottom flange.
I do know that it is not right, That tends to be the norm on a lot of the things I am finding. Now I am working on fixing as much as i can so it is right before I move on with the rest of the renovation.

The whole thing started with changing a light fixture, the original plan was to lay down some carpet and call it a day for a few years which snowballed into this complete gut.

I plan to stay here forever so it will be worth the work in the end when the kids have somewhere nice to play.

Now I just need to finish demo, clean and start the repairs so I can move on to the rebuild.
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  #44  
Old 2019-02-20, 09:02 AM
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Thought this might help as well, here is a picture of the space on the main floor above the beam.
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  #45  
Old 2019-02-20, 01:09 PM
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Re I-beam: Looks like the bottom of the I-beam is 6 inches wide (4 x 2x posts).

Thats big for its purpose. Also a span > 12 ft would be fine. The 2 x 6 or 2 x 4 laminated posts is not a problem actually. Fam member has a 32 ft steel beam sitting on 4 @ 2x6 posts (each end). It was a new build and I was initially concerned. Had it checked by a structural engineer and all was good. Its holding up the second storey exterior wall and of course the roof. Compared to this, you have essentially no load.

For yours, I would squeeze another 2 x in that gap on the one end, just because , and thats it.

The one concern, as you have mentioned, is if there are the footings under these posts. Those pads are usually 2ft x 2ft. The little cement walls are a bonus since it gives you 8 inches+ of concrete.

An old trick is the use a hammer and tap the cement floor starting away from the post location and moving closer to the post. Where it is floor only it will sound very differently than when you tap over a footing. Hard to describe but a very solid thunk. If there is a footing under these posts good to go.

Pretty sure code requires a beam to have minimum 3 (maybe 4) inches surface on a beam pocket. The same should apply to the floor joists. If you have say 4 inches plus sitting on the I-beam you are good.

Has the wooden beam sagged at all? A piece of string is all you need to check it.

If no sag, I would not reinstall a post under the wood beam unless it can be hidden in a wall based on new design. Id probably run some 4 inch screws into each joist through the side of the beam to help hold it up. Each joist should be toe-nailed in to the beam already.

Last edited by good2know; 2019-02-20 at 01:16 PM.
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  #46  
Old 2019-02-20, 01:44 PM
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Re I-beam: Looks like the bottom of the I-beam is 6 inches wide (4 x 2x posts).

Thats big for its purpose. Also a span > 12 ft would be fine. The 2 x 6 or 2 x 4 laminated posts is not a problem actually. Fam member has a 32 ft steel beam sitting on 4 @ 2x6 posts (each end). It was a new build and I was initially concerned. Had it checked by a structural engineer and all was good. Its holding up the second storey exterior wall and of course the roof. Compared to this, you have essentially no load.

For yours, I would squeeze another 2 x in that gap on the one end, just because , and thats it.

The one concern, as you have mentioned, is if there are the footings under these posts. Those pads are usually 2ft x 2ft. The little cement walls are a bonus since it gives you 8 inches+ of concrete.

An old trick is the use a hammer and tap the cement floor starting away from the post location and moving closer to the post. Where it is floor only it will sound very differently than when you tap over a footing. Hard to describe but a very solid thunk. If there is a footing under these posts good to go.

Pretty sure code requires a beam to have minimum 3 (maybe 4) inches surface on a beam pocket. The same should apply to the floor joists. If you have say 4 inches plus sitting on the I-beam you are good.

Has the wooden beam sagged at all? A piece of string is all you need to check it.

If no sag, I would not reinstall a post under the wood beam unless it can be hidden in a wall based on new design. Id probably run some 4 inch screws into each joist through the side of the beam to help hold it up. Each joist should be toe-nailed in to the beam already.

Awesome thanks,
I will check if it is sagging and confirm I have 3-4" sitting on the beam.
On the 2x4 end I will check to make sure there is a footing and I may still replace the wall with a triple 2x6 just for ease of mind. Adding the 4" screws wont hurt either so I will do that as well while I am at it.

Thanks for all your help so far.
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  #47  
Old 2019-02-20, 05:17 PM
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My pleasure. I really like your house and see why its a keeper
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  #48  
Old 2019-02-20, 06:27 PM
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My pleasure. I really like your house and see why its a keeper
Thanks! we knew to get the house we wanted with the property it was going to need work. If all the work was done we wouldn't have been able to afford it.

I would have paid about the same for a new raised ranch in a subdivision and still had to do all the finishing work anyway.

When we saw this we jumped on it right away and got lucky to get it.
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  #49  
Old 2019-02-20, 08:56 PM
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Required bearing for beams in Part 9 of the OBC is 3 1/2".

Steel beams are typically supported by steel posts or concrete/masonry walls. The connection between a built-up wood post and a steel beam is awkward. I can't recall if the requirement for a steel, concrete or masonry support is in the building code or not. Haven't designed one of those in a while, but I used to only spec steel posts.
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  #50  
Old 2019-02-21, 09:19 AM
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Required bearing for beams in Part 9 of the OBC is 3 1/2".

Steel beams are typically supported by steel posts or concrete/masonry walls. The connection between a built-up wood post and a steel beam is awkward. I can't recall if the requirement for a steel, concrete or masonry support is in the building code or not. Haven't designed one of those in a while, but I used to only spec steel posts.
So the 2x4 wall would be sufficient for support?
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